tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post5289335752544406246..comments2024-03-11T03:02:29.875-06:00Comments on Simple Massing Priest: Clouding the issue with factsMalcolm+http://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-50711209852151412312010-02-25T23:30:47.524-06:002010-02-25T23:30:47.524-06:00"Be a member of the parish" ought to be ..."Be a member of the parish" ought to be a pretty straightforward thing. However there were several reliable reports that "member of the parish" was taken to deliberately exclude anyone who refused to support the attempt to alienate the parish from the Episcopal Church. Certainly some people were told they could not attend the meeting because they were deemed to be "no longer" members since they had not attended from the point when Armstrong was inhibited by the Diocese of Colorado.<br /><br />Several loyal Episcopalians refused to participate in Armstrong's faux-legal hoax because they declined to lend credibility to his attempted illegal actions.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-11669423883934883592010-02-24T22:10:39.096-06:002010-02-24T22:10:39.096-06:00I know I'm breaking my vow to stop patronizing...I know I'm breaking my vow to stop patronizing your blog, but I spoke to our friends earlier this evening who used to attend Armstrong's church in Colorado Springs and wanted to report what I was told - without embelishment, commentary or adjectives.<br /><br />All members were permitted to vote and there was no requirement to become part of CANA. The only requirement to vote was to be a member of the parish. Some people (I don't know how many) boycotted the meeting as a "protest" and did not cast a vote.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-68910986641995796102010-02-19T18:02:07.678-06:002010-02-19T18:02:07.678-06:00Since my last comment came through as "Anonym...Since my last comment came through as "Anonymous" instead of Warren (I don't understand as I didn't change anything), I owe you one more with my name on it.<br /><br />If there was a pure church, it wouldn't be pure for long once I arrived. Can you point me to a "fruitful and gracious" exchange you've had on your blog with someone who disagreed with you about the split between the ACoC and ANiC/ACNA (on your blog)? I'm sure it's there, but I don't have time to go back through your history.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-48884424949793414722010-02-19T16:37:45.038-06:002010-02-19T16:37:45.038-06:00Can't leave without a departing slander, I see...Can't leave without a departing slander, I see.<br /><br />Just for the record, I have had fruitful and gracious exchanges with people who disagree with me on a range of issues.<br /><br />It is difficult to have honest exchanges with people whose apparent intent is to slander and attack.<br /><br />I hope you find your pure church somewhhere, someday.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-6920937632484229412010-02-19T15:45:30.548-06:002010-02-19T15:45:30.548-06:00I'm not really surprised, Warren.
I know, it ...<i>I'm not really surprised, Warren.</i><br /><br />I know, it is hard to surprise hard hearted people.<br /><br />I think it would be best for all concerned if I said sayonara to your blog. You're no more welcoming of diverse opinions than is the Essentials blog and there aren't nearly as many people to dialogue with. I don't think anything is to be gained by the two of us picking away at each other. I'll leave you to your fans and won't further interupt the "slam" party. Real life will go on.<br /><br />It's been a slice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-19357486980345417102010-02-19T15:19:51.478-06:002010-02-19T15:19:51.478-06:00I'm not really surprised, Warren. It isn'...I'm not really surprised, Warren. It isn't about sex. It's about politics. And about the use of a particular wedge issue to advance the right wing agenda.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-82237075899142961472010-02-19T14:40:27.167-06:002010-02-19T14:40:27.167-06:00IOW, it's politics as practiced by Karl Rove a...<i>IOW, it's politics as practiced by Karl Rove and Dick Cheney.</i><br /><br />With funds supplied by some of the same people.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-11514431855418557982010-02-19T14:37:24.080-06:002010-02-19T14:37:24.080-06:00If the ACoC did a 180 on homosexuality, it wouldn&...If the ACoC did a 180 on homosexuality, it wouldn't change my view. The matter of SSBs, etc., is just a symptom of a much deeper and much older problem (as we've discussed at length on another blog).<br /><br />I'm currently a member of a large PCA church. I don't know the majority of people, but, based on my fellowship group (which numbers about 80), the minority of the people in the church are from a Presbyterian background. Most are new converts or originally started out in a different denomination. Curiously, it wouldn't suprise me if there were more people who were originally Baptist than Presbyterian. The gospel is preached unashamedly and people keep coming in.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-18832676087940259972010-02-19T14:20:22.807-06:002010-02-19T14:20:22.807-06:00Thus far, then, the diocese has not taken legal st...Thus far, then, the diocese has not taken legal steps to have you return a building which is legally and rightfully the diocese's.<br /><br />I've frequently made the distinction between people who scruple over the particular issue of same sex marriage and those who have used this issue as a wedge in their attempts to rend the Church apart. <br /><br />Much of the ACNA movement has been funded by the deep pockets of far right activists like Howard Ahmonson and the so-called Institute for Religion and Democracy. They have funded similar groups of provocateurs in other mainline denominations, including the United Church of Christ in the US, the Presbyterian Church in the US etc. Indeed, their focus is the take-over or marginalization of mainstream denominations in the US and the damage they have inflicted on the Anglican Church of Canada is collateral.<br /><br />The folk on the ground obviously have a range of motivations, but the deep pockets funding ACNA (and the jetsetting lifestyles of Akinola, Orombi et al)don't give a rat's backside about the Gospel. It's about silencing critics of the far right agenda.<br /><br /><br />IOW, it's politics as practiced by Karl Rove and Dick Cheney.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-11932604111852377592010-02-19T13:50:04.334-06:002010-02-19T13:50:04.334-06:00Thus far, the Diocese has not tried to "repos...Thus far, the Diocese has not tried to "repossess" the building - I don't think they want to assume the cost of upkeep and the circumstances are such that they might find it very difficult to sell. When the time comes, as it doubtlessly will, I think there is a good chance that the entire congregation will just walk away and find another location. I hope they do, actually.<br /><br />I suspect that, by your definition, about 90% of North American Christians are on the "far right".Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-65912958406932212922010-02-19T13:32:55.909-06:002010-02-19T13:32:55.909-06:00This is where the hypocrisy of the far right reall...This is where the hypocrisy of the far right really comes into play.<br /><br />The circumstances of those wwho left your parish is precisely analagous to the decision of you and others on the far right to leave the Anglican Church and the Episcopal Church. You and they didn't like the preaching and so departed.<br /><br />Dress it up in all the proof texting you want. Your departure is exactly like theirs except for two small differences.<br /><br />1.) Thay aren't jetsetting around the globe pretending they were tossed out on their asses and<br />2.) They didn't try to take the building with them.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-56902701256347463912010-02-19T13:23:04.966-06:002010-02-19T13:23:04.966-06:00I note, however, that your description still makes...<i>I note, however, that your description still makes the rector supportive of the act os schism, though deferring to others to promote it.</i><br /><br />Your exceeding graciousness never ceases to amaze me.<br /><br /><i>More along the lines of wondering how many people who did not agree with the overall tenor of the parish had left in the preceding year or two.</i><br /><br />I was only in the parish for two years, so I can't speak to the history as an observer. My impression is that, over a period of 10+ years, several people did leave. People who were not accustomed to gospel preaching from the Bible, and who didn't like it. I'm certain that none of them were given a cold shoulder or made to feel that they were unwelcome. I believe that Heb 4:12 is a better place to look if you need an explanation.<br /><br />I'll await your shredding of this comment too.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-89709392389310158252010-02-19T12:31:17.589-06:002010-02-19T12:31:17.589-06:00I don't deny it is possible that such a case m...I don't deny it is possible that such a case may exist. I note, however, that your description still makes the rector supportive of the act os schism, though deferring to others to promote it.<br /><br /><br />I'm also quite intrigued by the claim of near unanimity that you, David and others have put up. That strikes me as more than suspicious. Oh, not that the vote wasn't nearly unanimous. More along the lines of wondering how many people who did not agree with the overall tenor of the parish had left in the preceding year or two. People who would, by the standards you people offer up, have been "forced" to leave their parish.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-22275201124234669072010-02-19T11:21:41.251-06:002010-02-19T11:21:41.251-06:00The rector was less enthusiastic than I and I was ...The rector was less enthusiastic than I and I was one of the people trying to speed up the separation process. As much as I liked his preaching and the parish, I remember telling him that, if the parish refused to break from ACoC I would, out of conscience, leave the church. He was very tactful in his conversations with me, and always tried to help me understand all of the issues. I believe that, in his heart of hearts, he deeply desired that resolution could be found so that a split would not be necessary.<br /><br />The rector is a leader in ANiC and, when the time came, he led the parish out of the ACoC. He never, however, tried to whip up support for something that most people were unenthusiatic about. He just faihfully and unashamedly preached the gospel, and didn't "hedge his bets", concerning the authority of Scripture. When the time came, their was virtual unanimity for leaving the ACoC.<br /><br />Call me disingenuous or a liar if you want (or any other name for that matter). I really don't care.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-23021916325885832262010-02-18T23:55:03.529-06:002010-02-18T23:55:03.529-06:00So, the clergy were not enthusiastic supporters?
...So, the clergy were not enthusiastic supporters?<br /><br />Come now, Warren. You're being disingenuous.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-21457823127241012482010-02-18T19:33:04.716-06:002010-02-18T19:33:04.716-06:00I certainly don't know of any parishes voting ...<i>I certainly don't know of any parishes voting to leave where it has not been largely - or even exclusively - driven by the clergy.<br /></i><br /><br />I can only speak from personal experience and for one parish. Your description does not apply (and it is a good sized parish).Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-10736749186685120712010-02-17T15:59:43.454-06:002010-02-17T15:59:43.454-06:00I think Armstrong is an extreme case. The degree ...I think Armstrong is an extreme case. The degree of deception and manipulation involved - ie, essentially only allowing supporters to vote - is probably atypical. I'm not convinced, however, that it is unique.<br /><br />I also think parishioners in many defecting parishes have been fed a steady diet of half-truths and untruths about the wider Church. I certainly don't know of any parishes voting to leave where it has not been largely - or even exclusively - driven by the clergy.<br /><br />I can't speak to any tendency for dissenters to return at some point after deciding they've been sold a bill of goods. The two parishes breakaway congregations we've seen in this diocese were never able to take any large number of people with them. One congregation seems to have disappeared. The other (affiliated to CANA) appears to be limited to a handful of Nigerian immigrants.<br /><br />What I have heard about is a lot of people who had "left" returning when teh Episcopal Church has been given back the building. These are folk that simply kept worshipping where they had always worshipped. But I only have that second hand.<br /><br />Here's the url broken into pieces. It seems the link is too long otherwise:<br /><br />http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/<br />episcopal_church/by_andrew_gerns_<br />a_colorado.htmlMalcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-72838548331560393822010-02-17T15:25:38.959-06:002010-02-17T15:25:38.959-06:00The link still doesn't work. It isn't an ...The link still doesn't work. It isn't an active link and it appears to be truncated. Maybe it's the computer I'm at.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-85452971796957740712010-02-17T15:23:28.054-06:002010-02-17T15:23:28.054-06:00If the charges against Armstrong are upheld I won&...If the charges against Armstrong are upheld I won't argue in his defence. Is your position that Armstrong is representative of other ACNA clergy and that many people who now belong to ACNA were tricked into leaving the ACoC/TEC? Do you anticipate that, once this trickery is brought to their attention, they will return to the ACoC/TEC? Are you observing such a return?<br /><br />P.S. my previous comment about the dead link referred to the Episcopal Cafe link. The newspaper link works.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-33588737908512276462010-02-17T15:10:36.536-06:002010-02-17T15:10:36.536-06:00http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/episcopal_church...http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/episcopal_church/by_andrew_gerns_a_colorado.htmlMalcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-25552182400964765562010-02-17T14:40:06.552-06:002010-02-17T14:40:06.552-06:00The link doesn't work - I get a 404 Error (Not...The link doesn't work - I get a 404 Error (Not Found).Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-63708821295568155562010-02-17T13:52:03.317-06:002010-02-17T13:52:03.317-06:00There's not much to ask in the Colorado Spring...There's not much to ask in the Colorado Springs case. Here's the link again that I posted above.<br /><br />http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/episcopal_church/by_andrew_gerns_a_colorado.html<br /><br />The rules that were established by Donald Armstrong and his cohorts required that members withdraw from the Episcopal Church, align with CANA and plegde to attend and to financially support the CANA affiliated congregation.<br /><br />In other words, people were only allowed to vote if they were intending to support Armstrong and his cronies.<br /><br />It would be like having a secular election where only members of one political party were allowed to vote.<br /><br />The "vote" in Colorado Springs was a joke from start to finish. It was an egregious act of theft and fraud - so egregious that even many others in the schismatic camp aren't prepared to defend it. The courts have now settled the question and the property is back in the hands of its rightful owners, the Episcopal Diocese of Colorado and the Episcpopal congregation. <br /><br />In the meantime, Armstrong faces indictment on 20 felony counts related to embezzlement of nearly $400,000 - all of this PRIOR to his allegedly principled departure from the Diocese of Colorado to the receptive arms of Martyn Minns and Peter Akinola.<br /><br />http://www.gazette.com/articles/armstrong-54699-indictment-theft.htmlMalcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-3792938382858958212010-02-17T12:50:33.076-06:002010-02-17T12:50:33.076-06:00In an earlier comment you stated that the Colorado...In an earlier comment you stated that the Colorado Springs vote was "rigged." My wife and I have gotten to know a family at our church who used to attend Armstrong's church (I think they left a year or two ago). If you have a specific question, I am willing to pose it to them (within reason - we don't know them that well). I have one of their boys in the Pioneer Club group I lead and will see them tonight.Warrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861923550601742759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-64968164270392677492010-02-15T18:51:47.950-06:002010-02-15T18:51:47.950-06:00It's not a question of what I believe or don&#...It's not a question of what I believe or don't believe, Kate.<br /><br />Michael Ingham has been a bishop for more than 15 years. At any point in that time, he could have been presented on charges of heresy had folk on the Anglican hard right chosen to do so.<br /><br />You didn't.<br /><br />I can only speculate on the reason.<br /><br />His usefulness as a bogeyman to frighten the credulous strikes me as the most credible hypothesis. Therefore, I defer to Occam.Malcolm+https://www.blogger.com/profile/08469936715413110334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2761538946854485154.post-12882497411085034902010-02-15T14:49:56.653-06:002010-02-15T14:49:56.653-06:00If it makes you feel better to believe that, Malco...If it makes you feel better to believe that, Malcolm,go right ahead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com